Can you tell me whats wrong with this dragon?

Jake > I will contact you soon.

Don > Give me your email address and I’ll try to help , thanks for the comment.

nemensiris > You focus too much on me, I’m still waiting that you help Jake.

Stop revising your posts… this is what a fourth one?
I know, those notifications are annoying sorry about that.
I was too sarcastic in my first versions, and thought that it didn’t reflect my thoughts well.

Or did you simply bash me
Where? I don’t even know you nor care about you.
That’s not in my interest to bash anybody, especially from this community. You should read again.

I think it’s your paranoia setting in. I believe that those of us who responded to Jake genuinely liked what he was showing off… so bash us for it!
You give yourself too much importance. I didn’t even care about you said.
I never said that others were wrong, but still I have the feeling that some people knew that his dragon can’t be compared with Rovio’s artwork (how could it be, they are PROS and can invest millions in their apps) and I thought I could help by responding in that thread.
All the people are trying to help, and that’s great. That’s the sense of community.
But if you talk to me like you did, this is my right to tell you that I don’t care about you.

because right now you come off as a bitter/hurt/upset (I don’t know which one, or maybe all three) individual
It’s a bit different, it’s just that I don’t care about what you think about me and still think that you should try to help Jake in that thread.

stop saying blabla stop telling blabla stop blabla stop
You are feeling powerful, aren’t you?

I know when to keep my mouth shut (something you should think of when you begin to bash others).
So now you are asking me to shut up? Gentleman above all. Don’t change!

As a self-proclaimed PRO you should be the first to understand that there are different types of art and everyone sees it differently and its common (especially in the iOS world) to see a project where some sucker spent thousands on artwork and all that effort was dwarfed by an app created by a 12 year old with drawing skills of a chicken.
Wait wait. Are you talking about Jake or about yourself?
I can’t handle that, I’m not a psychologist.

A character (if one is in your game) is just as important as everything else in the game
Mm? how is that different from what I said. I’m wondering if we are discussing in the same thread.

More seriously, I get what you are trying to say.
I know that we all have a different way to judge the value of someone’s art and it’s hard to express what we think without hurting one’s feelings.
So I tried to do it in english (as you know well is not my first language) and I’m glad he got my advice.
It was an effort for me to take the time (and the risk) to do so, I knew that some people would disagree and maybe dislike me. Still, I did it because I got help when I was starting and I want to help too.
Maybe you don’t like what I said, the way I said it, you won’t like my work, you will search the forums to find some angle to attack me more, etc… but that was expected and - again - I don’t care.

But Jake said that his goal was that his artwork can be considered as good as Angry bird and while you don’t like me you can admit in all honesty that it’s not. YET.
I’ll try to help him by email if I can, and that’s what that thread was about in the first place.
[import]uid: 95346 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84617[/import]

@MrMells you can reach me at don @ loqheart com [import]uid: 27183 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84645[/import]

I think the dragon is fine and you really should go on with your game! In fact, your task is to put your work out in the market, which will give the *right* answer to your question.

We have seen mediocre apps selling very much and many other polished games not selling at all, so there is a bit of luck in the process.

We have to live with that and advertise as much as we can. Good luck! [import]uid: 67641 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84647[/import]

@MrMells - you must be one of the most fact twisting people I had the pleasure of dealing with. I suggest a career in politics. While attempting to save your own self from coming off wrong you try to throw me under the bus by saying that you’re waiting for me to help Jake?

If you’ve only spent 1% of the time helping (as you so claim) you spend on digging yourself out of these holes you create, we’d all be in a better place, and this wouldn’t have been a giant waste of time.

Let’s get some facts straight over here. Jake approached me to help him with his dragon via Skype prior to even posting this on the forum. I told him what I thought of his design but overall I thought it was a killer dragon and that if he required further assistance or opinions from someone who might be more knowledgable with the subject, he should post it on the forums for all to see. Which he did.

I love the forum, I’ve gotten a great deal of help from it, and I’ve made a large number of acquaintances and probably a handful of people with whom I communicate and have almost regular in person meetings with and now consider friends.

I thought Jake’s experience with having his artwork judged would have been somewhat similar, given how positively things turned out for me. Have I known that instead of a positive feedback from someone who considers himself a professional artist would be this giant mess of responses, I would have never suggested to Jake to reach out to the community.

While I support and encourage self promotion and community participation your attempts of doing so come off so strongly that out the emails (oh, yea about a dozen) I received only one person defends you while others say that you’re probably a great artist (for which I applaud you and am envious of) but lack the basics of people skills, and while you claim to help others… you do nothing but belittle and shred someones work to pieces while continuously elevating yourself to a near perfection of an artist. Trust me, if you were that good… you wouldn’t have to keep telling us that, we’d probably know :slight_smile:

You have managed to steer this thread in such a direction that the main focus now instead of helping Jake judge his art turned into yet again “your professionalism” “how good you are” and “how shitty other work is” … very reminiscent of your other responses to the threads you participate in.

I did help Jake, I told him what I think of his art… I find it rather cool and I wish I could do it… sue me for being really honest with him, and if you think you’ve helped him by tearing his creation to pieces without any constructiveness then you should go pound sand because there is no help for you.

If on the other hand you’re helping Jake via email without self-promoting yourself and convincing him that what you’re telling him is really helpful (like you did with others) then I thank you. If and if only that is the case while there is no help for you… you’ve restored my faith in this thread and the goodness that it will produce for the OP.

I BEG YOU: Instead of writing back, help others (Jake in this case) like you claim to do.

PS. As amusing as this whole thing is/was I’ve been warned that this will turn into exchanging essay long responses with you. I have no desire to continue wasting time with someone who has a superiority complex and likes to belittle others while twisting the facts and tell them “this is only for your own good”… something really tragic happened to you in the past, something even though I was not involved in, but something I am deeply sorry for as the tragic event from your past left you cold, bitter, and arrogant. [import]uid: 10379 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84653[/import]

Hey guys,

A bit of healthy debate and difference of opinions is OK but this is getting closer and closer to being something really ugly.

You’ve both voiced your thoughts so please, no more comments from anyone that are not specifically related to the original post - I don’t want to close the thread but if it just degrades into bickering I’ll have to.

Thanks,
Peach :slight_smile: [import]uid: 52491 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84654[/import]

Hi Peach,

sorry that you had to intervene here.
I don’t want to disturb here, but as you know what is on the internet stays forever and I don’t want false claims to remain.
You might give me a yellow (red?) card for that, but I want some people who read to know (don’t worry Peach, no attack in that message) :

I really didn’t want that thread to be around me and that’s perfectly fine if people dislike me for what I am, but not for what others wrongly think about me.

Also, I believe that this conversation could be interesting in another context.

I am a pro = I’m able to deliver the results that my clients are expecting, I try my best to be reliable and produce great results.
To be pro = to raise your level or to lower your client’s expectations
That also means I have filled the paper to be “official” in front of the law.
And that’s all. Would would not aim to be “reliable, professional, trustable”?

Don’t see anything else, any arrogance, you won’t find anywhere a word where I say I am good.
I never said that “I’m pro = I’m the best”.
Everyone should be a “pro” here, or aiming to be " reliable, effective, able to deliver client’s results".
I see no reason to be offended by that claim.

I’m NOT good. If there was a ranking (well, it’s subjective) I would be in the lower side. The world is filled with great artists that I admire. I am not a great artist and I don’t even try to make such a claim : I’m not self promoting, I’m not filling the forums with my links, and I don’t even have a public website to show my artwork.
If people like my work, thank you. If not, no harm.
But if I can help someone, I do it. I hope it’s clear when it’s said that way.

I have been good enough until now to meet some of my client’s expectations and that’s all I care.
That doesn’t make me a great artist, but a reliable pro.
People can dislike me for my position, but I never said I’m good and the others are not.

Yes it’s perfectly fine to try to be paid a lot
that’s why people enter the ios market. If that was not for money (+pleasure), people would create game for their own pleasure and for their friends.

If being paid a lot = more time to spend with your children, then hell yes people should aim to be paid the maximum for their work.
The myth of the “starving artist = sincere artist” is false. It’s a myth.
Everyone should aim to be paid more in order to spend time doing great things in life : spending time with their children, helping other people, doing good.

No money = no time = no influence in this world.
I hate being in front of my computer several hours in a row, that time would be better spent doing something else.
But that’s an investment.
So yes it’s perfectly fine to find clients that would pay you a million if the value of your work can get them 2 millions. For that, you have to work hard every day and seek that kind of clients instead of expecting that they come to you.

And last
I don’t care about somebody = whatever this person thinks is ok. No (good nor bad) personal feelings.
I am not asking for people to like me, and nobody can ask me back. But if I spend time addressing people by their name, that proves I don’t disrespect them.

My relationships with people = great with the people that I care for, some other people really like me and others (probably a lot more) dislike me for having convictions. That’s fine like this.

Hope it’s clear said that way. Now dislike me for what I really am and it’s cool that way.

Now off to try to help Jake to ship his game and improve his dragon the way he expects.

Suggestion for Jake

I think that you should open a thread where you show a bit more of your game so we can know better how your dragon fits, what would be the graphical level of expectation of your audience, what games and designers would be your competitors in the market so you can compare with more specific metrics. [import]uid: 95346 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84694[/import]

Dude you just don’t know when to zip it huh? (this probably applies to me as I always try to fight injustice [not that this one was] in the world).

MrMells; as we may not agree or what not with what has happened here, I wish you nothing but continuous success with your work. I really do. I don’t wish anyone anything other than that. One thing I completely agree with you is this;

Peach, please lock this thread and allow Jake to repost so he could get some real expert or non expert advise as this thread has been completely hijacked by this mess caused between MrMells and me.

Ps. Now let me get back to the Super Bowl weekend, and enjoy the 2 kegs I picked up! Let NY kick some butt (although I don’t think that’s possible, and truthfully I don’t follow football… I just love the commercials) [import]uid: 10379 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84696[/import]

Sorry had to come back for one last thing
=> nemensiris > I do wish the best for you too. If you have some links to your website or app store, I might buy one of your games, don’t hesitate. We spent some time discussing, let’s say it was an investment : you get a customer, and I get a game to play.

And to give more value to my post before Peach closes it, I would like to (try to) help :

Often people start working on their projects by doing what they love (following their passion).
And that’s perfectly fine, but if you want to hit the market you have to know what the market is expecting.

Strategy

You need to seize your resources : will you be able to push your game on the market, or should you give an answer to expectations that this market has already answered to?
How should you invest your limited money and time?

For a starter, I would suggest that you make a market research and study the top sellers.
You could then make a bridge between your own passions and “what has the market already responded to”.

Release

Study the top sellers, add a twist, package, and release soon.
You will learn more by shipping than working on your game for months on your desktop.
Shipping, learning Apple rules, build, get in touch with game review websites etc is a whole thing to experiment.

Then make it easy for customers to buy your game first so you can get a maximum of feedbacks.
Your first goal (as a starter) is not sales but feedbacks : you don’t have the experience to make a hit from the first time.

Update

Thanks to customer feedback, you can update your game, make it closer to what they expect, get some sales.
What did they like? What did they expect? How should you make it better from their own words?
Should you improve the artwork? level design? gameplay?

Study again the top sellers, what are your competitors doing?
How can follow the same path but take your own original idea, a twist, to make it remarkable?

Then you can hire a sound designer, graphic designer, buy some PR to put your game in front of more people.

Monetize

Now that you have an audience (free or cheap price) and that the package is made to your customer’s tastes (feedbacks), create more content and package it following the strategy that you want :
IAP, premium app, etc…

Start another cycle as soon as possible

Work on another game and start another cycle.
You have more chances of being visible and profitable by creating 4 apps that meet average success than expecting a home-run from the start.

If you got a relative success, you can even invest in doing a more “personal” and original app, away from what top sellers are doing.
That’s what you should aim for : profit first, so you can work on what you love with a financial security net.

Always ask yourself

What are you trying to achieve, what have you tried to get the expected results?
Why did it fail?
Also, what is the overall feeling that you want your customers to get, what is your competition and how did they differentiate themselves?

Keep a journal, note, analyze, and above all : test

Follow the top sellers but don’t forget that you might have an idea totally original that surprise the market and make you successful : once you have more resources from your first sales to invest, see if you have an idea that should be pushed further.

Experiment with pricings, and upsell methods.
Now it’s iap, free+ads, but we might see some new methods for monetizing coming soon.
Nothing is decided, the market is still trying to find its rules. Experiment, test, have fun and profit.
Create your own system if you want, this is your market and you can play it with your own rules (sometimes).

So please take those advices with a grain of salt, I don’t mean that this is “how to do it” but more like “How I would tackle that challenge if I had to do it”. [import]uid: 95346 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84700[/import]

Can this be closed yet? [import]uid: 19626 topic_id: 21286 reply_id: 84701[/import]