I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but...

General (non-technical) Off-Topic
#1

I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but I have yet to see a game developed in ANSCA Corona that, as far as graphical design is concerned, looks as professionally designed as thousands of games that have been done well with Obj-C/Cocoa Touch. Just one example is Carcassonne. http://itunes.apple.com/jp/app/carcassonne/id375295479?mt=8

If there is a Corona game that compares. please let me know.

Also I’m concerned that the gameplay of the Corona-designed games is also a bit “toyish”. I think this may be because it’s so easy to develop a game with Corona that it facilitates quick simple “free” hobbiest-designed games. I’d like to see a professionally designed game that took many months of thought and coding so that the finished game compares favorably with the best of the Obj-C/Cocoa Touch developed games. I believe it is possible. [import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 301617[/import]

#2

We agree that all developers, Corona or not, should invest in good design. A good looking game will outsell a programmer art game anytime.

But, it’s a bit unfair to choose Carcassonne as an example. The board game has been around 10 years and has won a number of awards. So it’s not a new game, and the iPhone version is presumably funded by a larger company with solid sales. It’s also priced accordingly.

Some iPhone games have $100K+ budgets, some way more than that. It’s hard to compete with big budgets. Still, many top selling mobile games were done on a shoestring. So it’s possible.

As to Corona… we know of a bunch of very nice apps that are still in development. Remember, Corona’s only been for sale for a bit over 7 months, and Game Edition was released into Alpha testing barely over a month ago.

Developers reading this, consider posting screenshots of games in development. We’d love to see what you’re working on. [import]uid: 54 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4671[/import]

#3

Sorry tokyodan, but your entire post makes absolutely no sense. You should focus your posts more on substance than irrelevant stuff like this.

What on earth does this have to do with Corona?

“I’d like to see a professionally designed game that took many months of thought and coding so that the finished game compares favorably with the best of the Obj-C/Cocoa Touch developed games. I believe it is possible.”

OK, so why don’t you make it instead of posting complaints every other day?

Like Eric said, some games have $100,000+ budgets… It has nothing to do with Corona. If you give someone a budget like that for Corona, they could produce the exact same graphical artwork. It’s not hard.

Also, do you honestly think games like Angry Birds and Doodle Jump are the most graphically stunning apps on the market? Not even close. Doodle Jump looks like a bunch of 5th graders got together and made an extremely fun game. And the game play in Doodle Jump and Angry Birds is pretty much the definition of “toyish”. Oh yeah, and not to mention, aren’t these the two best selling iPhone games of all time?

So in reality, it’s not very convincing to say you need the greatest graphical interfaces ever and meanwhile Doodle Jump and Angry Birds have sold millions of copies with HIGHLY simplistic art work and highly simplistic game play.

Seriously, do some research on the audience playing these games since you’re clearly misinformed. Most of them are probably college students/young people who couldn’t care less if the graphics rival PS3 games. Seriously, mobile games are time wasters, literally, that’s it. I just went through the top 10 paid games in the app store. Literally like 3 of them have anything more than simple little comic style graphics. But I guess that’s not what people are looking for apparently… [import]uid: 6678 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4673[/import]

#4

I agree with everything you said. But I chose Carcassonne because it’s such a beautiful, professionally done design that was developed by very small three-man team that outsourced the graphics design, music, & voice acting work. The company that did the overall design was The Iconfactory http://iconfactory.com

Hiring a professional designer to do the artwork doesn’t cost an arm and a leg these days. Especially with great designers from developing countries competing for work.

Anyway my game is going to be ready for public viewing in the next couple of months AFTER I hire a designer to do the artwork. Then everybody will have their chance to get back at me and make fun of and criticize my game. haha. I’ sure I’ll get some hard honest opinions now. And that’s what I’ll be wanting to hear. [import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4674[/import]

#5

“What on earth does this have to do with Corona?”

Hey Dude! Read the title of this forum section. What is it? Yes that’s right! it is “OFF TOPIC”. And it looks like I touched a nerve with you. Why are you so pissy?

“OK, so why don’t you make it instead of posting complaints every other day?”

I’m trying.

Also I was stating my opinion which still stands. And I’ve been told by others that the games developed with Corona aren’t very compelling. (But I believe they can be.)

“So in reality, it’s not very convincing to say you need the greatest graphical interfaces ever and meanwhile Doodle Jump and Angry Birds have sold millions of copies with HIGHLY simplistic art work and highly simplistic game play.”

I didn’t say that greatest graphical interfaces are needed for a great game. I just stated that what has beed developed with Corona so far doesn’t look so good.

But I do agree that the greatest graphical interfaces AREN’T needed for a great game. But it’s nice to have a good looking game

A good example of what I’m trying to say is a this game with a simple interface and simple gameplay. And it’s great. But although the UI is simple it still has that professional touch. It’s Worm: http://itunes.apple.com/jp/app/worm/id318784975?mt=8
[import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4675[/import]

#6

“Hey Dude! Read the title of this forum section. What is it? Yes that’s right! it is “OFF TOPIC”. And it looks like I touched a nerve with you. Why are you so pissy?”

Not what I’m talking about. You said “but I have yet to see a game developed in ANSCA Corona that, as far as graphical design is concerned”. That’s what I was referring to. What does what the graphics look like have to do with Corona? The answer is nothing… That’s why it’s a silly post. Because it’s a thread with no beneficial purpose.

Have you ever used Corona? I assume that’s a yes. Have you ever placed a graphic on the screen? I assume that’s a yes too. So then what’s the point of this the thread is my question.

It seems the only legitimate purpose one can find in your original post is taking a shot at Corona and all the developers who have released games. Seriously, when I re-read your original post, and say to myself “What can this thread achieve?” I come up with literally only that. And that’s not cool.

“Also I was stating my opinion which still stands. And I’ve been told by others that the games developed with Corona aren’t very compelling. (But I believe they can be.)”

That’s fine, but then you should also be prepared to be called out for making a thread with the sole purpose of degrading peoples’ work when you yourself have shown absolutely nothing. So yeah, I have no problem with you voicing your opinion, but that’s my opinion. What else was this thread for? You already know what Corona can do, so this isn’t a question, rather just a shot at everyone else.

"But I do agree that the greatest graphical interfaces AREN’T needed for a great game. But it’s nice to have a good looking game

A good example of what I’m trying to say is a this game with a simple interface and simple gameplay. And it’s great. But although the UI is simple it still has that professional touch."

I would think almost every Corona game that’s been released so far is as “professional” as that. I really don’t know what professional means to you because what you just posted seems like a 360 from your original post. And like I said before, I bet the majority of people would say Doodle Jump doesn’t strike them as “professional”. [import]uid: 6678 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4676[/import]

#7

Oh and just to be clear, I have no problem at all with people critiquing games and being constructive. But literally all you did was say “All the games released with Corona so far aren’t ‘professional’ and stink”. That’s not constructive. It’s just a shot at an entire group and helps no one. If you want to spend your time disliking other peoples’ work at least give specific criticism to everyone and ways to improve. [import]uid: 6678 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4677[/import]

#8

Actually I though it was constructive. If you read between the lines my post says use a pro graphics designer if your design skills aren’t enough. And to put more effort into making really world-class mobile games, which I think can be done with Corona. I was just wondering why I haven’t seen any yet. But like you said Corona is still new.

And besides. Can’t I give an honest opinion about what I see. I’m not attacking anyone nor trying to hurt feelings, but if the shoe fits, put it on. And if I have that opinion I bet that I’m not alone. [import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4679[/import]

#9

I bet I wouldn’t have heard from you if I had said all the games done with Corona are stunning and unbelievably professionally designed.
I bet you wouldn’t have questioned the value of such a post.
It’s you who is looking to take a shot at someone. I just happened to be in your path.

Well from now on for your benefit I’ll just not be honest and be overly positive in my posts. [import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4680[/import]

#10

So your constructive criticism to everyone who has ever built a game using Corona is “hire a graphic designer, and make world class games”. I shouldn’t need to say this, but if that’s the best constructive criticism you can give, then that’s just sad. Do you honestly think anyone who does their own graphics doesn’t want to hire a graphic designers? Obviously that’s not the case, they just don’t have the money…

You keep saying you’re not trying to insult anyone. You’re saying that every game built with Corona has been poor, unprofessional, and “lacks compelling game play”. You ARE insulting people, and that’s what you don’t understand. And it’s a wide group, anyone who has ever released a game they built with Corona.

I’m done here. All I can say is think about what you’re saying and how it can be insulting to… everyone. And maybe spend some time working on your game rather than posting random thoughts. Because everyone has random thoughts, including myself, but I know when to refrain from posting them. [import]uid: 6678 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4681[/import]

#11

Well my initial post wasn’t anywhere near as harsh as you made it out to be. I was speaking comparatively and not absolutely.
[import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4682[/import]

#12

Hi folks,

like DFox, i think it is important to realize what your market is and what device you run it on. It clearly has to drive the design of your app. For an example I simply can’t use expensive particle effects on these mobile devices, as it brings down the framerate. So you have to work different. And developing a game over more than 6 months for the appstore is silly imho. You won’t get the money back you spent on it. And your time is worth money too.

Judging a development tool like Corona by the apps that had be produced with it (design wise) shows that these people have not a clue at all. They are comparing apples and oranges here. One thing is the design and one is the technic that runs everything behind the design. They could only argue regarding corona, that things could not be designed in a certain way because Corona doesn’t support what is needed for the design technic wise. But just judging by how the graphcis look like and what sounds are playing, man… they should sell their computers and take up garden work or something like that.

So when we just look at the design part and keep corona out of this for a minute, what has influence on it?
Most for sure your budget. If you have money and be sure that you will get the money back (on the appstore this is like playing lottorie) you will hire artists for the graphics and sound. I yet have to see the programmer who is great on that and at the same time awesome in doing graphics and sounds. If you have no money and no good friends who like to help out, you do these things yourself and in the best possible way. I am sure that the first develoepr of a doodle game didn’t say “hey, the appstore needs a doodle app”. He could not do it better. But coupled with a good gameplay, the app took of. There was a market for it. Then a lot of developers jumped on the doodle train, because they saw that there was a market for these kind of apps. Now you bring out a doodle app, it will be unsuccessfull 99,9% of the time.

Most customers in the appstore are impulse shoppers. They don’t look for the next Final Fantasy or other big titles. Why else would something like IShoot have sold so much. You have to be there the first and be something new. Then it does not matter if it just looks ok. People play these apps only as time fillers. They don’t expect a rich gaming experience.

Btw. the BIG COMPANY behind the carcasonne mobile apps is still Koch Media. They contrated Codingmonkeys to do the job. The graphics are mostly taken from the board game design. The rights for anything computer related besides mobile apps are now with Microsoft. The success of the mobile apps have nothing to do with their design but with the popularity of the game itself. It is an self maintaining IP just like Settlers of Catan.

Cheers
Michael Hartlef

http://www.whiteskygames.com
http://www.twitter.com/mhartlef [import]uid: 5712 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4686[/import]

#13

Michael.

Thanks for your thoughtful and levelheaded post.

Now I’m not talking about particle effects and other power hungry effects. And I wasn’t judging Corona by the apps that have been produced by it. I wrote over and over that I thought Corona was up to the task of producing really really great world-class apps.

To further make my point clear, I just found a good example of what I mean when I say a professionally designed app. And I’m talking about appearance, not gameplay nor level of coding ability:

Here are two takes on the same famous board game. One free and one paid. Now which one looks professionally designed. Surprise! It’s the free one.

That is what I think all Corona programmers should strive for.

Unfortunately, the games I’ve seen done in Corona so far (and I haven’t seen them all) look more like the paid one. Please show me a game in Corona that compares in graphical design to the free version of this game. There’s got to be some!

http://itunes.apple.com/jp/app/simple-mastermind/id379561632?mt=8
http://itunes.apple.com/jp/app/crack-the-code-free/id314952906?mt=8

I’ll leave you with this has nothing to do with ANSCI Corona but is concerned with the attitude of some game programmers. The great looking Mastermind clone’s website is also professionally designed. And although the cheezy looking game has a link to it’s website, it’s is non-existant. But who knows? Maybe it’s only about budget.
[import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4702[/import]

#14

No problem dan.

>>And I wasn’t judging Corona by the apps that have been produced by it.

But you said, other people approached to you that did that. Judging a development tool by its creations is the worst part you can do. Cause then you limit yourself. I use a lot of tools, not olnly corona. I take the one that fits a job fine.

About design, yes I am sure we agree that everyone wants to make the best looking and feeling app/game. Some can, some can’t. But they still do their best. And they can be proud about it. Your know why? Because they finished a game. 99% of wannabe developers will never finish something. The most important part of game/app creation is finishing the project. And it is the hardest part too. But with tools like Corona it is even more easy to create an app for the markets.

Cheers
Michael [import]uid: 5712 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4711[/import]

#15

I wrote that others told me that GAMES developed with corona aren’t that great. That doesn’t mean that Corona isn’t great.
Anyway I agree with what you said about being proud of finishing a game. [import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4715[/import]

#16

I think the key thing is tokyo there *may* be a game released or about to be released that is really slick which *has* been written in Corona and you just don’t know it. I mean its not like GameSalad where there is a splash screen you could easily code a basic game and make it look like it was written using ObjC/OpenGLES.

As mentioned above you need to remember it is a fairly new technology so will take time. Cocos2D is a great framework which saves alot of time but there aren’t that many games using it but that will change. Its human nature to look at the most efficient/easy to way to build stuff which is what tools like Corona allow you to do. It just takes time for people to get familiar and squeeze the best out of it.

If you turn your argument on your head using straight objective c/Cocoa/OpenGL doesn’t guarantee that the end product is going to be a polished game and as DFox says the most popular games are the simplest ones. He is absolutely on the money when he says they are ‘time wasters’. You want a game you can play while queuing up, easy in, straight off etc etc

Gary [import]uid: 7334 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4719[/import]

#17

How many times do I have to write this? My initial comment wasn’t about if Corona is good or bad. It was about the GAMES written with Corona. SO FAR. And yes, simple amateurish games can be written with Objective-C/Cocoa Touch.

Actually I think Corona is a great technology. THAT’S WHY I was wondering why no (in my opinion) wold class games have been written with it yet. But as everyone has pointed out - Corona is still new - Give it time.

Also Corona is SO powerful that I think it DOES allow amateurish game to be put out because some people will try Corona and say “Wow! This is fast and easy! Let’s see what I can THROW together.”

And as far as what types of games are desired on the iPhone. I don’t agree that a popular iPhone game has to be, simple, quick, and able to be played while queuing up. I like more involved games that take a little time and thought to play. And there are tons of games like that in the App Store that are very popular.
[import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4720[/import]

#18

And one more time. I love Corona. I think it’s the best thing since sliced bread. And I’m going to stick with it. I can’t wait to see how much more powerful it will get.

And I want ANSCA Corona to be financially successful so that it can continue to be developed. In order for Corona to be successful it has to become very popular and become the developers’ tool of choice. And the bigger and more famous the developers are, the better. And for more developers to get on board there need to be fantastic, slick, beautiful, fun, deep or simple, professionally designed games that cause people to say: “Wow! That was developed with Corona?!” [import]uid: 295 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4721[/import]

#19

No feelings hurt here. This is quite tame compared to what I’ve read at other pro game forums.

Corona is a tool and depending on who’s using it and their skillset then you will get varying results. For example, if you gave a pencil to me and then somehow we resurrect Da Vinci and gave him the same pencil, I am sure his results will be much better. Correction, it will probably be a masterpiece.

At this time, it’s beta 7 and so far I like what I see. It currently doesn’t have a lot of UI but I am hoping to see more. I am sure in the next few months more Conona based games will come out and the party will start to happen.

In my viewpoint, Corona is awesome. [import]uid: 8045 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4727[/import]

#20

Hey Tokyodan

Id say first, give it time. People are still experimenting and it takes time to go from a working concept for a game to a final look / feel. The programming comes first in some instances, such as getting the game engine up and running.

If a team was working on a game together then I would expect concept art / game level design to be coming from the design team, a game engine from the programming team and at a point later the two would merge to form the game. As a designer I have skinned applications / interfaces / games in the past that were nearly complete except for final graphics.

From my experience in Corona you can pretty much do anything you want. Sure you might have to program the effect / figure out the best way of layering pngs to get a required effect, but if you can visualise it in Fireworks / Photoshop then you can have it looking the same in Corona.

Im currently working on taking 3D models and rendering out a sprite sheet, that way I can get photorealistic animated sprites that blend perfectly with other layers.

Carcassonne, as a design is easily reproduced and it doesnt matter what platform it is running on to achieve that look, I could have it running in flash like that given a day (not the game play but the look etc…). What makes the game is how the look of the interface / the design of the functionality of the interface and the programming of the interface come together to provide a intuitive user experience.

Check out www.alienhorde.com, its a realy simple game I did to test / learn Corona. Im using lots of layering effects, shadows, many different groups, massive textures, glows, custom fonts and it all came together really easily with Corona.

Wait until Corona is on general release, I would suspect by then that you will see some amazing games that both look great and handle like a real arcade game. [import]uid: 5354 topic_id: 1617 reply_id: 4731[/import]