review sites and copyright issues

General (non-technical) Off-Topic
#1

I’m thinking about starting an app review site, and I had some questions regarding copyrights and wondered if I could get some input from you guys on this?

Am I legally allowed to use screenshots and icons of the apps that I’m reviewing on my own review site? For example, let’s say I’m reviewing an app, so I take that app’s icon and then display it on my own website next to my review. Then I take the screenshots provided for that app and display them on my website as well as part of my review.

My question to you is, is it legal to do this? Or is it illegal, and we are required to obtain permission from the owner FIRST before using their graphics in my review? [import]uid: 82194 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 325747[/import]

#2

I started to do a review site, I just don’t have time to run it.

Generally people will volunteer their app information and screen shots to you because they generally benefit from the review and as an app developer, it’s in my best interest to let you use that information.

Now if you review an app without asking the app person first, they could contend that you violated their copyright by using their images and descriptions without permission.

In theory they would have to ask you to take down the violation first, or issue a DCMA take down request. After that, should you fail to honor the request, then they could sue.

Now of course in course, you could argue that the app provider makes said information available for the exact purpose that you used it for and it might win.

So I would suggest either a) asking the app vendor, most will say yes, unless you’re going to rip it to bits. b) make your own screen shots and don’t copy any text more than a sentence or two.

I’d love someone to take over my review site. It was starting to get a little traction.

[import]uid: 19626 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104115[/import]

#3

In the US it should be covered under “fair use” as it covers use for the purpose of critique. Look that up.

If it wasn’t covered, there would be law suits left and right. Especially when a bad review is given. [import]uid: 31262 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104117[/import]

#4

Thanks guys for the valuable input! Assuming “fair use” applies to an app review website, and I am allowed to use the icons/screenshots of the apps I’m reviewing without asking the owners permission ahead of time, would this also apply for “apps” as well? So for example, let’s say I create an app review “app”, and inside this app, I have a listing of apps along with their reviews. Could I include the icons of all those apps INSIDE my app? As long as my app is free, and as long as I’m evaluating all the apps in a positive light, could I get away with including their icons WITHOUT asking permission from the owners ahead of time?

@robmiracle - why did you give up on your review site? Were you getting overwhelmed with too many review requests and just didn’t have the time for it? [import]uid: 82194 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104122[/import]

#5

It was a half brained idea. My oldest son was in between jobs at the time and he likes to right and loves his iPhone, so I figured we could build a review site, and once we got enough traction, and readership we could offer premium reviews much like other review sites and generate some income. He really didn’t want to do it, but since I started it, I wanted to try and see if I could give it a go. But my work picked up and I don’t have the time to pursue it.

So I’ve stopped promoting it and I just can’t even turn around reviews in a timely fashion so if I can’t do it right, I don’t want to do it.

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#6

You don’t have to get permission from someone to do a review of their app. Not even if you use screenshots. Not even if it’s in an app – the medium doesn’t matter.

Jay

PS - This is not legal advice.
[import]uid: 9440 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104149[/import]

#7

I agree with Jay. As long as you review an app that is freely available on the market, no one can stop you to do so, even if it’s a bad review. That’s journalism, i guess.

On the other hand, leaking infos and screenshots of an app that’s not released yet, could be problematic.

-finefin

[import]uid: 70635 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104210[/import]

#8

many games already have a downloadable press kit with all of that artwork/information available to make it easy as possible for people to do a story on it.

a few top notch examples would be apps such as Cannon Cat http://www.cannoncat.com/ , Roo Roo Run http://www.runroorun.com/ and The Nightlings http://www.shizapp.com/
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#9

Great feedback guys, I appreciate all your help. It’s always great to get a second opinion on things. Thank you!! [import]uid: 82194 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104346[/import]

#10

I agree with Jay. As long as you review an app that is freely available on the market, no one can stop you to do so, even if it’s a bad review. That’s journalism, i guess.

Mmm Canupa I would suggest that you add, like Jay, that this is far from being a legal advice?
Unless you know some things that we don’t :slight_smile:
Your definition of freely available = no copyright is a bit abusive, and when you say “no one can stop you” I respect your opinion but I believe you are totally mistaking.

Giving your opinion (text) and displaying images and artworks are different things.
You are the copyright owner of the text that you produce, but you have no right on the images.

Here is my point of view (that’s not legal advice at all, but based on a few years of experience in the publishing field) :
If nobody has clearly expressed the fact that you can use his artwork (publish, reproduce, modify, etc), especially to use on a review site in order to attract readers and sell advertisement for your own interest, then you don’t have the right to do it.

This use is tolerated by the copyright owner because it serves his interest.
But it’s his own decision to weight the benefit of letting others abuse his right or not, not the reviewer’s, he is the one that decides when things are taken too far.
He holds the rights, that can’t be contested.

Press kit are made publicly available so the use is permitted under some terms and those terms are explicitely formulated somewhere.

If somebody think that “this is ok” to build a business that way because he is “giving back” by putting links to the app store ( affiliate links, right?) then this is only his point of view and he should be required to ask confirmation from the other part about the way he will use the artworks.
I have seen some reviewers use artwork in the background, in the header, in the sidebar, etc…
I am not talking about paid advertisement, but artwork taken from the review site to make its design better and sell more ads.

>>In this last paragraph when I use “somebody” I’m not talking about anybody in particular (robmiracle, davidJames) so please don’t misunderstand and don’t take it personally. It was a general “somebody” <<

So NO those images are not copyright-free and the owner has every right to stop you from building your business around it.
This could be in his interest to let you do so if it’s part of his strategy, but this is another thing. [import]uid: 95346 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104359[/import]

#11

@MrMells of course, you are right. I should have added “this is no legal advice” to my comment :wink: But to be honest, I don’t want to write a legal discalimer under every single post of mine.

I was primarly talking about the text, tho. Clear case: the author of the review text holds the copyright of his text, even if it’s about an app somebody else created.

When using screenshots, it’s always a good idea to kindly ask the developer. Or use press kits, if provided. Many devs also release video trailers on Youtube - embedding youtube videos is no crime. Also, when I wrote “no one can stop you” I was talking about using screenshots that show how the game looks like, which is indeed generally tolerated.

As for taking graphics from games and use them to pimp the review website, you are also absolutely right: if the copyright holder sues, he will probably win…

I live in germany and we don’t have a “copyright law”. We have the “Urheberrecht” (in US: moral right), which works slightly different: you can’t sell ownership, for example. What you CAN sell are usage rights. But the work itself is ALWAYS yours.

Take this fictional case:
A german developer creates a game and sells it to a german publisher. The publisher releases it and creates a press kit. If there are no contractual agreements covering this, the developer theoretically can take action for injunction towards the publisher when he thinks his work is presented in a way he doesn’t like.

Another topic is “fair use”, which doesn’t exist in europe but in the US. If an US reviewer takes graphics from my website to use it for a review, it may be covered by fair use but not by european law.

What that means is, that in a globalized business, not only laws of one single country (i.e. USA) come into play, but laws of different countries all over the world.

What I’m trying to say is: THIS IS NO LEGAL ADVICE AT ALL. MAYBE IT CORRESPONDS WITH LAWS OF THE COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN MAYBE IT DOES NOT!

-finefin [import]uid: 70635 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104688[/import]

#12

Hey, finefin @canupa, glad to learn a little more about “morale right” from global perspective. I’ve never questioned a lawyer what & why of “morale right” clause that is often included in intellectual property related contracts. Now I have somehwat better idea where it comes from. Thanks!

Naomi [import]uid: 67217 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104698[/import]

#13

@davidJames are you or any one else interested in taking over the review site I started?

It’s Wordpress based so it’s easy to use. I have a basic template setup for using text editor to fill out all the bits then just paste it into the post body, upload a couple of photos and publish.

I’d be willing to continue hosting the site on my hosting plan, but who ever takes it over will be responsible for renewing the domain name each year.

It’s “Tap My Apps”.com http://tapmyapps.com

Cost: Zilch. Though I wouldn’t turn down donations to offset the hosting costs.
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#14

Hey Rob,

what is your visibility with that domain. I was thinking of starting a review blog myself, not necessarily to make money off of it, but to review games that deserve it that companies like TA won’t touch because they don’t know the people directly or they’re not in their pocket somehow. There are tons of amazing games that get overlooked every week that should be visible. It seems like Apple looks to TA (and other big “review” blogs) for their choice on who to feature and by large those games/apps tend to do a hell of a lot better than the majority not featured. Suffice to say, in my opinion, if you are featured in the app store because of TA, that will guarantee your success as little or as big as it may be. Otherwise great games fall by the way side because they weren’t the lucky chosen, didn’t go through a publisher with connections, or didn’t have an in at one of these companies.

Perhaps if a few of us get together and put our free time together we can help contribute to making these apps that get no love from the big guys onto some review sites and help promote them as well.

Just a suggestion. [import]uid: 63800 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104915[/import]

#15

I was getting around 200-250 uniques per post. The related twitter account has around 500 followers. The facebook account is pityful.

My goal with it was to provide Indie developers who can’t get reviews on TA and other sites to at least have a place to get some reviews. Making money was a goal, but I definitely did not want to review apps that already get lots of publicity.

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#16

“Perhaps if a few of us get together and put our free time together we can help contribute to making these apps that get no love from the big guys onto some review sites and help promote them as well.”

@shizapp - are you talking about maybe putting something together like idevblogaday.com, only for Corona developers? Just like they do, maybe we each get assigned a day to make a review or a blog post, but focus on only developers from the Corona community? Anyway, just a thought.

@robmiracle - that looks like a fairly extensive site! Since I’m a children’s app developer, I was going to focus specifically on children’s app reviews, so your review site would be covering too many different app genres for me. But really, I hope that someone continues your great work and it’s a shame that it’s not getting put to use! [import]uid: 82194 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104938[/import]

#17

I think that a lot of us probably share that vision for a blog review site. It looks like you had started to have a good following build so it would probably be worth picking back up again. I run a web development / graphics / marketing shop as a day job so I understand the online market and what people are looking for. I realize that many of the blogs review the bigger games because it generates clicks and ad revenue from those clicks, people want to know what the big dogs are up to so it makes sense for them to choose only the best of the best. The problem that one would face by reviewing *all* indie apps is while you will be providing a service to indie developers, general public or gamers will be primarily be interested in the great games and not every iteration of angry animal or this vs. that, so you wouldn’t be doing a service to yourself and your wallet if you review every single app that is released. The idea thing to do would be to feature games that are great, but don’t get the attention that the 20 or so get each week from Apple and TA. You might already have started that.

Another important thing not to fall into is a “commentary” site that masquerades as a review site. There are too many of those out there these days and their concern isn’t to give unbiased critiques on games but to make everyone happy and rate everything 4, so that they appear respectable. There is a market for watching people play games and tell you about what they are doing but that doesn’t help people determine if the game is good or not. People respect good, honest reviews as long as they don’t appear to bash, so I’m not sure why reviewers have to a) leave out the review aspect of their review, and b) fluff it up to make everyone happy.

If anyone else is interested, I’d be willing to spend an hour each night submitting reviews for various games. I already purchase many of the “unpopular” games anyway.

I think it would be a huge benefit from the community, personally. If you wanted to monetize it, add some low cost rotating banners that average indie developers can purchase for $20 / month. [import]uid: 63800 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104942[/import]

#18

@davidJames - Well, idevblog.com is such a niche domain name that you will be attracting only devs. You can gain small success by having your app reviewed by them but lets face it… General public attention gains larger success. Rob has a domain name that is not so focused on a niche of a developer audience and more on a general audience. What I was proposing was (and he probably already started this or there is likely something out there already) is a public gaming reviews site that promotes games that aren’t on the major sites or featured in the app store that are remarkable. They don’t need more publicity. [import]uid: 63800 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104943[/import]

#19

@davidjames, just because I was doing a wider array of apps, doesn’t mean the future proprietor can’t move it in their own direction or vision. I think I have a pretty cool domain name and have done the work of setting up the infrastructure. There is no attachment to the logo, the theme of the site or anything.

For those who don’t have wordpress experience, user accounts have several different roles that set their privilege levels:

Administrator: Can do anything.
Editor: Can add, edit, delete, update posts, images and comments.
Author: Can add, edit, delete, etc. their own posts, but not anyone elses.
Contributer: Can add content, but can’t publish it, thus an editor has to approve it first.

So you wanted to do a community based site, you could designate several editors, let anyone become an Author or Contributor.

I’m fine either way, I just hate to see the site going to waste and I can’t justify renewing the domain name (which is due at the end of June)
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#20

I think an indie review site may work. A lot of times if a person wants to buy a game they may want to find reviews of it first. They may start with a quick google search. If you google a AAA game you will find thousands of hits but most small indie games you won’t find any reviews at all. [import]uid: 31262 topic_id: 25747 reply_id: 104964[/import]