Conversation about ASO: App Store Optimization - Please join the conversation!

General (non-technical) Corona Geek
#1

Hello guys,

I recently release my first ios app and discovered that my keywords (the one on iTunes Connect) were the worst ever! The keywords actually made sense and were related to my app genre. But there is such competition for them on the app store that I basically wasted the 100 characters allowed by Apple.

My understanding is most people choose relevant keywords but really at random (like I did). Worst they choose words that appears on competitors apps. The reason is a bad way to do this is because those competitors "own’ those words. Their apps ranks high in the app store. Using your 100 allowed characters going after them is probably not the best way. A better way (at least this is my current understanding) is to try to “own” less competitive keywords. The trick is to found words that are also relevant to your app.

Anyway, when I took a closer look at my keywords, I quickly understand the issue. I was able to do that by using ASO tool. Unfortunately most of them are paid, but my thinking is if they pay for themselves (+$1) why not use them. The basic idea is that in order to choose keywords the smart way, you need DATA. Those tools provide these data.

I started using Appcod.es ( http://www.appcod.es ) tool is so far I like it very much. It allowed to not only found out that keywords choice were bad but it allowed to find better ones. You simply type bunch of phrases that your potential users maybe using to search for your type of app and then the tool gives not only how popular the word/sentence is but how likely you are to “own” that word/sentence! Pretty powerful. You can even do that with different country app store.

I am waiting for the approval of an updated Space Command with some new keywords which i found with the use of this tool and so it is hard to say yet if the tool help. Please DO NOT take this as an endorsement of Appcod.es It is simply a tool i like and felt comfortable using at the moment. I also know that it will take multiple updates (of the keywords) to find a good balance.

In any event i strongly suggest to Corona developers to look into tool like Appcod.es (it is not the only one, SerachMan SEO and some others are around) and check and make sure your keywords are not making your app more difficult to find on the app store.

Another reason I started this thread is to start a conversation with you guys about best practices in term of app store optimization. If any of you uses Appcod.es, SearchMan and others tools like that, please share your views/suggestions on how to be use these tools. My hope is that we can learn from each other on to best maximize our apps visibilty in the app store. After all with 750K apps in the Apple store alone, most of us here are NOT each other competitors!

Please join the conversation!

Mo
@LairdGames

ps: I realize the potential sensitivity of the subject. Many will prefer not to tell whether or not they are using these ASO tool. I respect that. Just share what you feel comfortable with. Thanks. [import]uid: 100814 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 335335[/import]

#2

Excellent suggestion Mo. I totally agree. Search Man SEO is on my contact todo list. I like the potential improvement that their tool offers, but I’ve asked around and not all developers understand how to use it to their benefit. I’ll work on getting someone on the show as soon as possible. Do you do any marketing outside of the app stores, like guest blogging, videos, etc.? [import]uid: 208407 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140462[/import]

#3

I think this is a brilliant conversation to be had and topic to be covered. I know for my apps, I picked keywords that seemed to make sense but I also struggle to find out words I should use. This would be a great Corona Geek topic/Video tutorial Charles. It probably should be a Tuesday tutorial topic as well.

Thanks for suggesting it Mo! [import]uid: 199310 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140479[/import]

#4

Thanks guys! You are welcome. Yes Rob, I think many do the same things with their keywords. I know for me was an after thought done at the last minutes. No more, I have started to use Appcod.es and it really take work to find keywords that are:

1- Relevant to your app
2- Do not use very popular app name (and risk Apple denying your app)
3 - Popular enough (there is no point of ranking #1 in a keyword that nobody cares about
4- You have some chance to “own” that word or at least rank high

As you can see that’s a lot of conditions! You can afford to choose willy nilly those 100 characters. Surprisingly there are not many “experts” in ASO out there and even less specific tutorials. So yes, interviews/tutorials will be extremely welcomed. Obviously, at the time I will more interested to learn more about the best way to use Appcod.es but of course learning about SearchMan SEO and other tools will be very valuable (to compare and finding out which tool helps the most)

another big issue is the price. These even so very valuable are difficult to afford for a small indie. I decided to go with Appcod.es because of it lower cost ($15/month) but SearchMan was $25/month. Of course, cost should not be the only reason for going for a tool. Like I said if a tool pay for itself then the cost is not really an issue.Still. I think these ASO companies will do good to introduce a more indie friendly pricing. Maybe a small group pricing like for say 5 indies group price where people can share the cost of the tool. It is hard for us to afford this type of cost when dealing with our first app. Of course it is chicken and egg problem. This type of pricing will bring more people in for ASO companies.

In any event, I am very excited that we can discuss this important subject on CoronaGeek!

Like I said “expert” are far in between in these relatively new field but here a link of a person I found on the net. Gabriel Machuret is a very good communicator and will be a good person to invite. Of course the founders of Appcod.es, SearchMan and others will be superb! Here a good one about Appcod.es

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGbjk31ZdaE

And his youtube channel with even more reviews of ASO tools:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrInternetNinja?feature=watch

Thanks, Rob & Charles (by the way people here should absolutely subscribe to the CoronaGeek podcast!) Once my app update is approved (any day now) I will be able to talk more about Appcod.es results. Still it can take multiple updates to find the best keywords. Once the update in the store, I will be able to tell if I made progress in some keyword (better ranking) and if not, change them for better keywords. It is iterative process…

Mo
@LairdGames

ps: No, i am electronic engineer that do software to relax! But I have been very interested in the subject marketing for a long time and do realize that coding is just step one! [import]uid: 100814 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140491[/import]

#5

Wow! Thank you again Mo for such awesome feedback. I think you are correct on all points. I’ll approach both services to see if I can get them on the show. It’s an important topic and the more we all learn about it the better.

BTW, I’m going to move this discussion to the Corona Geek forum as a house keeping measure. I think it should live there since it’s related to Corona Geek show topic suggestions. But, let’s keep the conversation going if anyone wants to add more to it. [import]uid: 208407 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140500[/import]

#6

FWIW, when I submitted my last app, I didn’t include the " app name" in the keywords, I actually forgot. I had done this previously in my submissions and it cost me valuable characters.

When I realized I had omitted my app name from the keyword list, I kind of panicked.

Well, I entered my apps name into the App Store search and my app was returned in the search which was relieving.

I’m sure this is covered in the docs somewhere, and it seems obvious, but I just didn’t know and didn’t want to take the chance before.

So from my experience, an apps name does not have to be included in the keyword list.

Nail

[import]uid: 106779 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140564[/import]

#7

@xnailbender

Sorry for the delay. Yes that’s great tip. I think a lot of people think that it is neccessary to use app name in the keywords box. The app name, company name are also keywords. That is why you see a lot of company names like “Top Free Games” Because they know that people search quite a lot for free games for instance.

Here couple more “tips”:

1 - Apple now will automatically add the keyword “free” if you are app is free so no need to add the word “free” to your keywords. That way you can save 4 characters. Since you only have 100, that 4% saving! Apple also do a better job with plurals. So something "car’ and “cars” will work about the same.

2- Use ALL 100 characters! Apple use those keywords to found your app when people look for it. The less keywords the less chances you will found. It is already hard to be visible, do not make it even harder by having only 1 or 3 keywords! Use all 100 of them.

3- If you have a free and a paid app, experiment with two different set of characters and then decide which one makes you more more visible. I am trying this with my upcoming Space Command Pro (paid) and Space Command Free.

4- Again this is iterative process so you need to monitor your results (are you ranking higher and higher with each keyword changes?) It will also take bunch of tries to find the correct keywords and the ones that you need to remove the list.

5- Use an ASO tool. At the minimum use the free Google keyword tool (even so I think it may or may not match exactly what people are looking on the App Store) You need data to make an inform decision. Do not go only with your gut feeling on this one!

Will love it if you guys have more “tips” you can add. Also, any better info on best to use those ASO tools out there will be awesome. I am sure (or at least I hope) that I am not the only person using ASO tool in the Corona community. Again share what you can. I know it could be a sensitive issue.

Cheers.

Mo
@LairdGames [import]uid: 100814 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140596[/import]

#8

Excellent suggestion Mo. I totally agree. Search Man SEO is on my contact todo list. I like the potential improvement that their tool offers, but I’ve asked around and not all developers understand how to use it to their benefit. I’ll work on getting someone on the show as soon as possible. Do you do any marketing outside of the app stores, like guest blogging, videos, etc.? [import]uid: 208407 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140462[/import]

#9

I think this is a brilliant conversation to be had and topic to be covered. I know for my apps, I picked keywords that seemed to make sense but I also struggle to find out words I should use. This would be a great Corona Geek topic/Video tutorial Charles. It probably should be a Tuesday tutorial topic as well.

Thanks for suggesting it Mo! [import]uid: 199310 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140479[/import]

#10

Thanks guys! You are welcome. Yes Rob, I think many do the same things with their keywords. I know for me was an after thought done at the last minutes. No more, I have started to use Appcod.es and it really take work to find keywords that are:

1- Relevant to your app
2- Do not use very popular app name (and risk Apple denying your app)
3 - Popular enough (there is no point of ranking #1 in a keyword that nobody cares about
4- You have some chance to “own” that word or at least rank high

As you can see that’s a lot of conditions! You can afford to choose willy nilly those 100 characters. Surprisingly there are not many “experts” in ASO out there and even less specific tutorials. So yes, interviews/tutorials will be extremely welcomed. Obviously, at the time I will more interested to learn more about the best way to use Appcod.es but of course learning about SearchMan SEO and other tools will be very valuable (to compare and finding out which tool helps the most)

another big issue is the price. These even so very valuable are difficult to afford for a small indie. I decided to go with Appcod.es because of it lower cost ($15/month) but SearchMan was $25/month. Of course, cost should not be the only reason for going for a tool. Like I said if a tool pay for itself then the cost is not really an issue.Still. I think these ASO companies will do good to introduce a more indie friendly pricing. Maybe a small group pricing like for say 5 indies group price where people can share the cost of the tool. It is hard for us to afford this type of cost when dealing with our first app. Of course it is chicken and egg problem. This type of pricing will bring more people in for ASO companies.

In any event, I am very excited that we can discuss this important subject on CoronaGeek!

Like I said “expert” are far in between in these relatively new field but here a link of a person I found on the net. Gabriel Machuret is a very good communicator and will be a good person to invite. Of course the founders of Appcod.es, SearchMan and others will be superb! Here a good one about Appcod.es

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGbjk31ZdaE

And his youtube channel with even more reviews of ASO tools:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrInternetNinja?feature=watch

Thanks, Rob & Charles (by the way people here should absolutely subscribe to the CoronaGeek podcast!) Once my app update is approved (any day now) I will be able to talk more about Appcod.es results. Still it can take multiple updates to find the best keywords. Once the update in the store, I will be able to tell if I made progress in some keyword (better ranking) and if not, change them for better keywords. It is iterative process…

Mo
@LairdGames

ps: No, i am electronic engineer that do software to relax! But I have been very interested in the subject marketing for a long time and do realize that coding is just step one! [import]uid: 100814 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140491[/import]

#11

Wow! Thank you again Mo for such awesome feedback. I think you are correct on all points. I’ll approach both services to see if I can get them on the show. It’s an important topic and the more we all learn about it the better.

BTW, I’m going to move this discussion to the Corona Geek forum as a house keeping measure. I think it should live there since it’s related to Corona Geek show topic suggestions. But, let’s keep the conversation going if anyone wants to add more to it. [import]uid: 208407 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140500[/import]

#12

FWIW, when I submitted my last app, I didn’t include the " app name" in the keywords, I actually forgot. I had done this previously in my submissions and it cost me valuable characters.

When I realized I had omitted my app name from the keyword list, I kind of panicked.

Well, I entered my apps name into the App Store search and my app was returned in the search which was relieving.

I’m sure this is covered in the docs somewhere, and it seems obvious, but I just didn’t know and didn’t want to take the chance before.

So from my experience, an apps name does not have to be included in the keyword list.

Nail

[import]uid: 106779 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140564[/import]

#13

@xnailbender

Sorry for the delay. Yes that’s great tip. I think a lot of people think that it is neccessary to use app name in the keywords box. The app name, company name are also keywords. That is why you see a lot of company names like “Top Free Games” Because they know that people search quite a lot for free games for instance.

Here couple more “tips”:

1 - Apple now will automatically add the keyword “free” if you are app is free so no need to add the word “free” to your keywords. That way you can save 4 characters. Since you only have 100, that 4% saving! Apple also do a better job with plurals. So something "car’ and “cars” will work about the same.

2- Use ALL 100 characters! Apple use those keywords to found your app when people look for it. The less keywords the less chances you will found. It is already hard to be visible, do not make it even harder by having only 1 or 3 keywords! Use all 100 of them.

3- If you have a free and a paid app, experiment with two different set of characters and then decide which one makes you more more visible. I am trying this with my upcoming Space Command Pro (paid) and Space Command Free.

4- Again this is iterative process so you need to monitor your results (are you ranking higher and higher with each keyword changes?) It will also take bunch of tries to find the correct keywords and the ones that you need to remove the list.

5- Use an ASO tool. At the minimum use the free Google keyword tool (even so I think it may or may not match exactly what people are looking on the App Store) You need data to make an inform decision. Do not go only with your gut feeling on this one!

Will love it if you guys have more “tips” you can add. Also, any better info on best to use those ASO tools out there will be awesome. I am sure (or at least I hope) that I am not the only person using ASO tool in the Corona community. Again share what you can. I know it could be a sensitive issue.

Cheers.

Mo
@LairdGames [import]uid: 100814 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 140596[/import]

#14

Well, I’m in the house! Thanks to Mo to invite me.
I just spend a bit reading the forum. Boom! talking about awesome content.

ASO tools are a must, but the most important part is…
THE SET OF MIND

in the last 6 months I have worked in ASO and I find that developers… yep, you guys, forget that this is a path… and optimization is a constant process…

That’s when ASO becomes a real strategy, vs a one time process.

:wink:

[import]uid: 221780 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 141384[/import]

#15

WELCOME Gabriel! It is so nice to have you here. I hope you and Charles can bring us a awesome podcast about ASO. Please make it PRATICAL! The Corona community can greatly benefit by learning about ASO.

I for one can’t wait for the next CoronaGeek show!

Mo
@LairdGames [import]uid: 100814 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 141389[/import]

#16

Well, I’m in the house! Thanks to Mo to invite me.
I just spend a bit reading the forum. Boom! talking about awesome content.

ASO tools are a must, but the most important part is…
THE SET OF MIND

in the last 6 months I have worked in ASO and I find that developers… yep, you guys, forget that this is a path… and optimization is a constant process…

That’s when ASO becomes a real strategy, vs a one time process.

:wink:

[import]uid: 221780 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 141384[/import]

#17

WELCOME Gabriel! It is so nice to have you here. I hope you and Charles can bring us a awesome podcast about ASO. Please make it PRATICAL! The Corona community can greatly benefit by learning about ASO.

I for one can’t wait for the next CoronaGeek show!

Mo
@LairdGames [import]uid: 100814 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 141389[/import]

#18

Thank you Mo and Gabriel. I’ve been listening to the ASO Podcast and it’s very interesting. I will be in touch Gabriel.

I’m also reaching out to the CEO of SearchMan SEO and to Tomasz Kolinko at AppCod.es to get them on Corona Geek.

We definitely need to get as many experienced people as possible involved in this conversation.

I’ll let you know when we have something on the calendar.

In the meantime, Mo would you be interested in creating a blog post on your own experience. There’s enough material from several of the posts above to put something together. If you will create a blog post, I will work to get it posted on the blog.

Let me know if you are interested. [import]uid: 208407 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 143504[/import]

#19

Hey Charles,

Absolutely! It is actually a great timing since my apps(free/paid) has been approved with new keywords. I should be able to report on the results very soon. I will write something and pass it on to you for comments.

Yes a CoronaGeek about ASO will be very beneficial to the Corona community I think.

Thanks.

Mo [import]uid: 100814 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 143635[/import]

#20

That’s great Mo. I look forward to reading it. Also, I spoke with Tomasz Kolinko today and am in the process of trying to get something confirmed for an upcoming hangout. [import]uid: 208407 topic_id: 35335 reply_id: 143671[/import]